Just realised (from a pvt response) that the tag for this had been ha= cked so here it is again - Anyone got any thoughts about my nominees place in history? RM ____________________________________________________ I asked a while ago who people thought the most influential civilian = in World War 2 was. I defined people like FDR, Churchill and Stalin as "military" as they were Commander in Chief of their countries. Here is a collation of the responses I received. My nomination and reason why is at the end In terms of funds expended and controlled, influence with ALL current= world leaders, and subject of conspiracy theorists he seems (to me) to be h= ard to beat. Bbob will disagree :-) There are some good thoughts here and each of these had a greater or = lesser effect on the war. I realise that what I had in mind by the term "influential" is differ= ent than what others may mean. Bbob complained about my definition (of course :-) ). RM _______________________________ Gavin said "Mrs Churchill". (Her name was Clementine). ____________________________ Dan said: Probably Alan Turing and the rest of the Bletchley Park crew. Also, I= would have to credit the French, Polish and German (the disgruntled guy who= sold an Enigma machine to the French) involvement (esp the Polish) in argu= ably shortening the war by several years. ____________________________________________________ Jinx said Turing (Enigma) or Robert Watson-Watt (radar) [[I pointed out that the first version of RADAR was patented by a Ger= man in 19004 and that if everyone had kept on with it then it would have bee= n in use in WW1 ! The British developed it much more thoroughly from the l= ate 30's and the german's also did very extensive RADAR development durin= g the war.]] ____________________________________________________ Paul Mc said: The dude who was mostly responsible for cracking ENIGMA! (Paul) ____________________________________________________ Ian Y said: Adolf Hitler! ____________________________________________________ Gavin B said: That French guy....the leader of the Resistance Monsieur L.ukky ____________________________________________________ Bbob said: My guess is that the person had the public's ear and following before= the war. A radio news commentator ,perhaps. Lowell Thomas or Walter Winchell may= be. I think I'm leaving someone out. Who was it that made all of those news repor= ts from London in the dark days? I am going to discount any religious leaders= , as" CIVILIAN" seems to exclude them. I think that the "radio media" is th= e best source for a candidate." Tokyo Rose"...Naaa. and I think that I was right to search for a "media" personality, but I forgot about the film industry. Howabout Humphrey Bogart or John Wayn= e? Wanna do some stirring? Put a film hero in peril. http://oz.plymouth.edu/~m_orlosk/ and OK Russell, I have finally realised that you're mind works in ways that only you = are convinced are valid. Here are my recent guesses. http://dcresource.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=3D4369= 02/ut=3D410 d6228b0d6cb53 Top this. ___________________________________________________ Tim P said: Problem is, I don't know all of the civilians who were influential in= WW 2. As far a public figure who has had an ongoing influence, I would say = Corrie Ten Boom, since her story is still being told, and her example is still influencing lives= . ____________________________________________________ Jeanette G said: Dietrich Bonh=F6effer is my hero but I guess his overall influence wa= sn't that great. Perhaps if you count SINCE the war as well, his influence wou= ld be a continuing one 'cos he wrote good books. ____________________________________________________ Bela I said Ed Teller, Leo Szilard, John Neumann together. They did nothing important, just the 'A' bomb for the USA ... They're named "The Martians" by Leon Lederman, "because they cannot learn english without a foreign accent, they speak a strange foreign language in between them that cannot be learnt by anyone else, they s= aid they were the students of the same secondary school, they said their teacher of physics were the same, and all these things happened in su= ch a small country, that it isn't visible on the largest map... Oooh, that's not true, they're simply martians ...." sais Lederman, a US physicist. ___________________________________________________ Gary C said: Henry J. Kaiser http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/kaiser.html 27% of total WWII shipping was done in Liberty Ships. 2710 were built; 200 were lost. One was built in less than 5 days. Kaiser was also largely responsible for the Casablanca Class aircraft carrier (CVE), also known unofficially as the Kaiser Class. Kaiser shipyards built 50 of them during 1943-1944. http://www.history.navy.mil/download/car-9.pdf ____________________________________________________ *********************************************************************= ******* ** My man's name leaves a complete blank with most people. He was named Harry Hopkins (HH) He personally masterminded and then implemented and authorised and controlled the expenditure of, (according to some reports) hundreds = of billions of dollars of funds in 1940 dollars on the war effort. (Lend= Lease) He was utterly trusted by FDR (the US President) and was his top advi= sor. Churchill considered him a close friend and would send him informati= on to give to FDR and discuss what he was trying to achieve so that HH coul= d present it as favourably as possible. He is said by many to have effectively been the assistant US Presiden= t (even though he was not elected). HH was sent to represent FDR to, amongst other places, England (numer= ous times), Egypt, Teheran, Moscow, and more. HH was invariably present at top level military conferences in the US= and elsewhere representing and/or accompanying FDR. FDR consulted him and took his advice on matters of ALL types includi= ng military actions. FDR wrote a paper on the future of the war prior to major US involvem= ent in Europe when the UK was still fighting Rommel and was in trouble. Chur= chill said that this was the most masterful and incisive paper that the Pre= sident ever wrote. He asked for the recipients to analyse and comment on the consequences of UK loss in Africa. It was a precursor to a major UK/U= S conference and was addressed to General Marshall, (chief of staff, Ma= rshall plan & FDR's top military man) Admiral King and (of course) HH. He is said by his detractors (soon after the war and still now) to ha= ve been a Soviet agent. I don't think he was - rather a child of his times when the reality o= f what Russia was doing in WW2, had done by the end of WW2 and could do were= much more real and relevant than appreciated by those smaller men who come= after. As master of lend lease he approved and expedited transfer of materia= l of all sorts to Russia and UK. He leant very heavily towards keeping the= flow going when there were problems. The Russians understood he was on the= ir side. Major Johnson diaries make interesting reading (sound slike a commie = spy to me ! :-) ) He is said to have personally approved and expedited the supply of TO= NS (literally) of Uranium to Russia up to 1943, also Cadmium, Graphite, Aluminium tube, Heavy Water and more. All apparently for engineerin= g use. What do you think the Russians really did with this material? :-) . Documents indicated now that HH had intimate knowledge of the work in= the "Manhattan Engineering District" (aka the Manhattan project, and the Trinity project from the earliest stages that the work was known abou= t by government and was kept up to date. He is also said to have personally authorised the transfer of technic= al information on the US A bomb project to the Soviets. None of which makes him a Soviet agent. Some of which will be false. = But the influence, accessibility and power needed to make these stories true = point to a degree of power unknown to most. He is also said to have personally connived to allow Pearl Harbour to happen. And so is FDR. None of which may be true, but again it points to where HH stood in t= he "web". At the infamous Yalta conference, now much maligned by many who were = not then even born and who find it easier to be wiser than our forbears, = the US, UK and Russia set the arrangements for post-war Europe. FDR died par= t way through Yalta. Churchill was defeated at the polls (job done, throw h= im out in gratitude). Truman took over as President. Anthony Eden as Prime minister. Continuity was achieved with HH who attended throughout. HH became Truman's right hand man as he had been FDR's. Truman sent h= im to Moscow to talk to Stalin over the treatment of Poland and sticking to= his agreements. Some hope. Stalin was a man of capabilities and willingne= ss's to do whatever he wished that we find it hard viewing him through modern= eyes. As a mass murderer of his own people and anyone else he could get his= hands on he has almost no equal. (Mao MAY exceed him but that's another sto= ry. ). Enough from me - search web for Harry Hopkins and be surprised. Interesting to try combinations of his name plus - Roosevelt Churchill FDR Stalin Soviet spy agent traitor lend-leas= e atomic bomb regards Russell McMahon -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads