I've been looking at the WARP13, any other suggestions? I don't really = have time to build and troubleshoot a programmer right now. I need a = programmer this week though. Also, if the programmer is capable of programming the 16C505, that would = be GREAT! Thanks! Steve Ruse -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.