I use a short cable to connect my PICSTART Plus to various boards to do ICSP. It works well, except I have to eliminate or reduce the power supply capacitors because the PICSTART is not strong enough to compensate for them. I realize I could build a driver board like the one Microchip suggests. But I am wondering if there isn't another stronger programmer that may work, without costing a fortune. Any ideas? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics