Damn it, first I send it to the wrong address and then Outlook strips the OT from the header when I forward it to the list. Can't win for losing. James Newton thoughtfully offered: >You want this "job" you can have it Bob. I'm sure you will do fine and show >a much more even and fair hand than I. But are you committed enough to the >list to do what it takes? Have you spent the time to build an FAQ? Setup and >Archive? Host it? Police the list? Bring constant unmarked Off Topics and >flame wars to almost a dead stop? I could sure use some help, are you >volunteering? I tried to stay out of this, but I can no longer resist. Here we all go down the road to ruin. It starts with non-retractable statements like this. Off list correspondence splattered all over the list and other grievous claims which are largely imagined. It will continue with even more permanent hard feelings and ugly verbiage. It will end with shattered friendships and a smaller list with possibly a new admin. Why? Is this all necessary? Has anyone really been wronged here? I submit that no one has suffered any real damage. However, we all shortly will. I see two groups of people here. One who somehow thinks that information that was publicly posted is still some kind of personal possession. Another who doesn't really give a damn, but is willing to become heatedly involved for the cause. Most of the argument here seems to be over the potential possibility of something that hasn't even happened yet. It looks to me like a scapegoat has already been chosen. How many people here have taken a piece of code, a technique, or even an idea that was offered to the list and used it for personal pecuniary interests? Who here hasn't begged, borrowed, or stolen something from the archive, the internet, or even a book and modified it for personal use? How many times was credit given or royalty paid for the information? I would imagine that the closest anyone came to this was to say, "hey, thanks for the info, it really got me out of a jam". Often, I see that this is not even what occurs as usually the threads end without leaving a clue as to whether the problem is solved or not. We all can safely deduce that the problem was either solved or the guy left because of "insult poisoning". This list is a cooperative. Everyone here is in it for one simple reason. They have a need and this list fulfills that need. Who here (besides James) feels that this has been a personal burden on them, and wishes that they had never partook of it? Does anyone think that they have put more into the list than they have received from it? Everyone here depends upon this list, simply because where else are you going to find 2000 technical brains to pick for free? The bottom line here is that James is in control of the list. He is the "supreme entity" in charge. He is being accused of a "travesty" that hasn't even been proven. He says that he has no intention of profiting from the list, doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt until he or someone else proves otherwise? Even if he does collect up some stuff and sell it, are we all to be pissed because we didn't think of it first. This is not intended to pick a side, but here goes anyway. Lets go through some basic facts: Having had personal experience in this arena, I can attest that managing a venture such as the piclist is allot more trouble than most of you might imagine. Believe me, this is a thankless, time consuming, pain in the ass job that you don't want to do. Witness the people whining about the digest and the "tragic loss of convenience" that they are currently suffering. This kind of "job" requires countless hours of upkeep. Is anyone paying him for his troubles? People have posted information to a "Public Forum". Surely, no one thought the information was going to remain some kind of "secret" that would never leak to the outside world. James has not been proven to have sold anything for a profit. However, as I said earlier, many others quite probably have pilfered the archives for information that was put to use for personal monetary gain. Sounds like a case of lets kill the messenger because we don't like the message. Your e-mail addresses are probably worth far more to James (as saleable items) than any piece of code contained in the archive. Has anyone here been inundated with spam relating to engineering, if so, it sure looks like it didn't start from here. Consider yourselves lucky, as not too many places that have your e-mail address are keeping it a secret. If you all will simply read the next privacy statement that you encounter when entering into a contractual agreement of some kind, you will discover that they are reserving the full and complete right to gather any and all pieces of personal, demographic information on you and then offering them up for sale to the highest bidder (although they call them affiliates so as not to upset you). Most privacy statements are simply there to mislead you into a false sense of security, since they always start off by stating how your private information will NEVER shown to anyone EXCEPT...................... The exceptions are both wide and varied. Does everyone here pursue those other "heinous violators of privacy" that you encounter in every aspect of dealings with other business entities, with the same diligence and vengeance that I am seeing here? I suspect not. I, for one, would not like to see this list destroyed or permanently damaged over perceived problems. I have mined vast amounts of knowledge and personal experiences from this list, and I suspect that others have too. I have really enjoyed the OT threads that have caused much debate and stimulation of brain cells. I have not enjoyed this one tiny bit. Please feel free to flame me if I have, again, stepped on any toes. I will give them all the consideration they so richly deserve. Michael Brown Instant Net Solutions www.KillerPCs.net "In the land of the blind, he who has one eye is king" -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.