James Newton thoughtfully offered:

 >You want this "job" you can have it Bob. I'm sure you will do fine and
show
 >a much more even and fair hand than I. But are you committed enough to the
 >list to do what it takes? Have you spent the time to build an FAQ? Setup
 >and Archive? Host it? Police the list? Bring constant unmarked Off Topics
and
 >flame wars to almost a dead stop? I could sure use some help, are you
 >volunteering?

I tried to stay out of this, but I can no longer resist.

Here we all go down the road to ruin.  It starts with non-retractable
statements like this.  Off list correspondence splattered all over the list
and other grievous claims which are largely imagined.  It will continue with
even more permanent hard feelings and ugly verbiage.  It will end with
shattered friendships and a smaller list with possibly a new admin.  Why? Is
this all necessary?  Has anyone really been wronged here?  I submit that no
one has suffered any real damage.  However, we all shortly will.

I see two groups of people here.  One who somehow thinks that information
that was publicly posted is still some kind of personal possession.  Another
who doesn't really give a damn, but is willing to become heatedly involved
for the cause.  Most of the argument here seems to be over the potential
possibility of something that hasn't even happened yet.  It looks to me like
a scapegoat has already been chosen.

How many people here have taken a piece of code, a technique, or even an
idea that was offered to the list and used it for personal pecuniary
interests?  Who here hasn't begged, borrowed, or stolen something from the
archive, the internet, or even a book and modified it for personal use.  How
many times was credit given or royalty paid for the information.  I would
imagine that the closest anyone came to this was to say, "hey, thanks for
the info, it really got me out of a jam".  Often, I see that this is not
even what occurs as usually the threads end without leaving a clue as to
whether the problem is solved or not.  We all can safely deduce that the
problem was either solved or the guy left because of "insult poisoning".

This list is a cooperative.  Everyone here is in it for one simple reason.
They have a need and this list fulfills that need.  Who here (besides James)
feels that this has been a personal burden on them, and wishes that they had
never partook of it?  Does anyone think that they have put more into the
list than they have received from it?  Everyone here depends upon this list,
simply because where else are you going to find 2000 technical brains to
pick for free?

The bottom line here is that James is in control of the list.  He is the
"supreme entity" in charge.  He is being accused of a "travesty" that hasn't
even been proven.  He says that he has no intention of profiting from the
list, doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt until he or someone else
proves otherwise?  Even if he does collect up some stuff and sell it, are we
all to be pissed because we didn't think of it first.


This is not intended to pick a side, but here goes anyway.  Lets go through
some basic facts:

 Having had personal experience in this arena, I can attest that managing a
venture such as the piclist is allot more trouble than most of you might
imagine.  Believe me, this is a thankless, time consuming, pain in the ass
job that you don't want to do.  Witness the people whining about the digest
and the "tragic loss of convenience" that they are currently suffering.
This kind of "job" requires countless hours of upkeep.  Is anyone paying him
for his troubles?

People have posted information to a "Public Forum".  Surely, no one thought
the information was going to remain some kind of "secret" that would never
leak to the outside world.

James has not been proven to have sold anything for a profit.  However, as I
said earlier, many others quite probably have pilfered the archives for
information that was put to use for personal monetary gain.  Sounds like a
case of lets kill the messenger because we don't like the message.

Your e-mail addresses are probably worth far more to James (as saleable
items) than any piece of code contained in the archive.  Has anyone here
been inundated with spam relating to engineering, if so, it sure looks like
it didn't start from here.  Consider yourselves lucky, as not too many
places that have your e-mail address are keeping it a secret.  If you all
will simply read the next privacy statement that you encounter when entering
into a contractual agreement of some kind, you will discover that they are
reserving the full and complete right to gather any and all pieces of
personal, demographic information on you and then offering them up for sale
to the highest bidder (although they call them affiliates so as not to upset
you).  Most privacy statements are simply there to mislead you into a false
sense of security, since they always start off by stating how your private
information will NEVER shown to anyone EXCEPT......................  The
exceptions are both wide and varied.


Does everyone here pursue those other "heinous violators of privacy" that
you encounter in every aspect of dealings with other business entities, with
the same diligence and vengeance that I am seeing here?  I suspect not.

 I, for one, would not like to see this list destroyed or permanently
damaged over perceived problems.  I have mined vast amounts of knowledge and
personal experiences from this list, and I suspect that others have too.  I
have really enjoyed the OT threads that have caused much debate and
stimulation of brain cells.  I have not enjoyed this one tiny bit.

 Please feel free to flame me if I have, again, stepped on any toes.  I will
give them all the consideration they so richly deserve.

 Michael Brown
 Instant Net Solutions
 www.KillerPCs.net

 "In the land of the blind, he who has one eye is king"

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.