Uggghhh...I shouldn't have eaten so much... :os >Err... I'm confused, you are saying that you like spending more money for >programmers that you can't debug because there is no source available and >can't expand to program new parts because the manufacturer has chosen not= to >support them? And you like hoping that the mfgr won't dump the product >and/or go out of business (in this very competitive world) thereby= removing >your only means of support? Sometimes it's better than build something that you will have to debug all= night long, to program a device and after, debug the device :o) I've= passed by it, it's not funny :o) >Wow. Wow! :o) >The only reason for buying a commercial product (and it is NOT a bad one)= is >that you don't have the time or desire to learn how or the equipment to= make >the product yourself. I'm not suggesting we fab our own processors! >Commercial products are just fine. If I had to program a bunch of= different >PICs on a regular basis and I had no patience for debugging, I'd probably= go >buy a Picstart Pro or a Warp-13 or some such. I agree with you in part. Remember that sometimes we just need to get the= work done. I have a contract job to produce a small timer with 12C508, and= since I hadn't no JW parts avaiable, I had to be SURE that the OTP parts= would be programmed in the right way. If the NoPPP95 bug (as an example,= since it doesn't do 508 parts) happened in 5 of the 10 OTPs I've bought,= not only I had lost some valuable time, but also some valuable money. So= it's better to stick to a comercial programmer with no surprises. Note= that I HAVE patience for debugging. But I can't do that in this case. Does= anyone knows the Willy EPROM Multi-programmer? I lost a great job because= of all the debugging I had to do in that circuit. Imagine the sequence of= errors: error in schematic -> error in the PCB -> Error in the software ->= Error in the final device. Where is the error? :o) Better buy a commercial= programmer and mind with the errors after. >People have been making and debugging and extending open source Tait style >programmers for a long time now. David Tait is not involved with PICs >anymore. There are multiple sources for kits or assembled units and those >companies are (presumably) making money on that. You can even get MPLAB >support for them. And you don't like that? You would rather have to wait= on >a closed source companies tech support to track down the bug in the noppp? No, I'd buy something that a) I can buy. b) WORKS See what I did: I bought the Xeltek Unipro programmer, and I needed to do= a job using the 8751. I had some tubes of 8751 lying around. Do you think= I'd construct a programmer, to debug it and after program my chips, and if= something didn't worked, where would be the error? In the code? In the= chip? In the programmer? In the programmer software? What about the "free"= programmer cost? >A) learned. And THAT is another thing we need to see more of on the= PICList, >Dan, along with "realism based upon hard experience" It's nice to learn when you have time and money to spend. When you are= paid by hour, you are supposed to work, and not learn. >B) the assurance that you are not dependant on someone's "trade secret" >profit motive. It depends. I'm not dependant on a "trade secret" of the Unipro= programmer. I know it works. And that's enough. >C) supported companies that are supporting open source, open designs and= the >hacker ethic through the purchase of kits, parts and possibly improving >their products with your feedback. Guys like Don at Dontronics.com (tons= of >source, ideas and musings posted right on the site for all to read.) and >Tony (now that he is open sourcing) and even Dan (who has a few really= nice >app notes up). Ah, nice ponit, and I do agree with you!!! But tell me ONE company that= makes an universal programmer as the Unipro or the All-03, that WORKS.= It's interesting to remember that NO ONE has this kind of device. Jim= makes great programmers for PIC, but I also need a programmer who do flash= roms, eproms, tests ICs, processors, et al. Since I'm always in a VERY= TIGHT budget and the xeltek programmer was at a "cheap" price, so I got= it. And by the way, Xeltek IS an open design. There is a program that= comes with it that allows you to toggle ANY pin of the programmer, so= creating a test sequence or programming sequence for ANY chip. Xeltek= programmers are the only one I know with this capability, and isn't it= open design? >D) advanced the cause of engineers everywhere by standing for truth,= freedom >and the hacker way. Wow, that touched me deep in the heart :o) >And before I get lambasted by some redneck blowing off steam about >"un-American commie pinko free-love socialists" please keep in mind that Epa, I'm Brazilian, have nothing to do with rednecks :o) >A) I have no problem with companies making money and keeping secrets...= I'm >just amazed that so few people care to learn the secrets and share them. >Also, basing a company on trade secrets seems like a very nerve wracking= way >to live. Always worrying that someone else will figure it out and tell the >world... Yesterday it was not feasible. Today it's normal. >Err... thinking out loud: What if all the PIC consultants and hobbyists >formed a purchasing and distribution alliance? All orders funneled through= a It would soon be corrupted, as everything that reunes a group and money. >central bulk purchasing "co-op"? Rush pick up from the local inventory of >one consultant by another in the same area? We do this already, but we >aren't organized about it. Just thinking out loud. It would be REAL NICE if no one got corrupted. >I make a lot of money as a consultant. And I owe part of what I make to= what Lucky you :o) >I've learned from the PICList. And in all the time that I have been here, So do I :o) >be a bad thing for business? How many more programmers could a company= sell >if it did more and did it better? Take the base unit, apply your own= "trade >secrets" to it, like a better PCB layout, extra features, better support= or >lower cost or whatever. It would be nice :o) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics