--0__=80256A2B004DD31E8f9e8a93df938690918c80256A2B004DD31E Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, While UK degrees are supposedly superior (a recent engineering journal showed that UK engineers were more likely to be employed after n months as opposed to other European countries, which may have something to do with speaking English.....), I have found that my degree bears little relevance to what I do for my employer. Out of the entire course, I have taken 3 modules concerning the writing of code; two of which were concerned with intermediate C and one of which was tailored to embedded systems. None of the modules contained any lectures regarding how to design/review/test firmware, real-time issues and I would say that none of these modules taught me anything I didn't already know: I scored > 95% in all of them, while other students I know, who were using global variables/gotos all over the place, did not know what a structure was, using variable names like "a", "a1" and "b"; ints where chars would have sufficed etc also scored highly, which is a bit annoying. As to other subjects, they only touch the surface but I would say there is definite value in final year projects and this is what a potential employer should be concerned with; how a student handles this element, to which they are supposed to target all their engineering ability has to be the most important - it is certainly the area I learned most from and put the most effort into. I'd say that you do not need a degree to be successful in any field......but a good degree will probably get you an interview. And, exceptional people will not stop at a degree, anyway, they will go on to a PhD......... Dan (Embedded Steve Nordhauser @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> image moved 11/04/2001 14:57 to file: pic15941.pcx) Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: [OT]: What makes an engineer (long winded) Security Level:? Internal In the C/C++ thread, there has been some discussion of the value of a degree. Since I regularly make hiring decisions, evaluate resumes and such, I thought I would throw in my thoughts. First and foremost, an engineer is someone who engineers. It has nothing directly to do with a degree. Some of the engineers that I have respected most had no degree. There was a group in the mid-80s on long island (3 guys) who, on their own designed a 4Kx4K vector video display using AMD bit slice components. It could rotate and scale a wireframe in real-time. All of the software was microcode (NOT code running on micros -look it up). They were amazing. Not a degree in the group. Another friend of mine has been running a successful business for over 10 years. He has layed out and tested 100's of boards. He can walk into a factory with a down production line, open a motor inverter, understand and fix it without schematics, save them $10,000 in down time and feels he can't charge over $35/hr because he only has a 2 year degree. The last programmer I hired didn't finish his 2 year degree after attending 6 different schools. He did write games on the side, helped people set up networks, showed me some well documented code, and answered specific questions with specific answers. When I asked him how he liked object oriented code, he jumped out of his chair and said 'C++ is sooo cool!' and sat back down. This from someone in his early 30's. He is an fine programmer and now an excellent friend. These people are all engineers. Fine ones. To me, as a perspective employer, all a degree means is that someone has a detailed background in the sciences and math. If they did research, that may speak of real interest in a topic. What I want to know is 'what excites them?'. What are their hobbies (robotics, ham radio)? What is the most interesting project they have ever worked on? How do they handle challenges? Mostly, degrees get in the way. They set the financial bar too high for small companies. The average starting salary for an MS from RPI is about $68K. With no experience. Call the career centers. Without management experience (and staying out of Boston and CA) the same engineers max out at $90K with 20 years experience. They will learn more about how engineering works the first time they put 1000 hours into a real world problem where good enough is not 'good enough' than they did at school. I know some of the schools are getting more hands-on and that's good. Co-op is even better. A one year internship is best. Only European students seem willing to do this. I've had about 8 interns from Germany, France and now Poland for 6 months to a year. Everyone enjoys it, they are productive and walk away with real value (I think). They are all hired into non-junior level jobs at any rate. I am at least satisfied with their abilities and sometimes dazzled. Also, I make sure that they are trained, not cheap labor. Apparently, this is a subject that I had a lot of thoughts about..... Steve Nordhauser Director of New Product Development, Imaging Systems IEM Corp -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu --0__=80256A2B004DD31E8f9e8a93df938690918c80256A2B004DD31E Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="pic15941.pcx" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pic15941.pcx" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgUBCAAAAABBADEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABQgABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --0__=80256A2B004DD31E8f9e8a93df938690918c80256A2B004DD31E-- -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu