Turned out to be the promate firmware. The versions prior to friday's release will apparently not program F627's in circuit. Mchip told me the new firmware wouldn't make a difference, but I went from 2 1/2 broken systems to 2 working systems, just on that upgrade. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org Where's dave? http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?kc6ete-9 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics