You could try programming with a PICSTART. Since the wire wrap version works OK - I guess you've checked that the oscillator on the failing units are working reliably- the stray capacitance of the wirewrap and/or a scope probe doesn't suddenly make it all happen for you? Richard P I have a project using the above chip where yields are terrible (60-70%). We are currently programming the part before putting it on the board. There APPEARS to be a software problem, as the board seems to crash when I start sending data to it. However, if I make a board with a DIP socket wire wrapped onto it so I can do crash and burn debugging, it works fine. Difficult to debug when I can't find the problem! So, what I'd like to do is put the SO part down on the board, then program it. If it crashes, I'll mess with my code and reprogram it 'til I get it to work reliably. We have a PRO MATE programmer (not a PRO MATE II), which does not support the Microchip ICSP module. Anyone have suggested solutions here? The one I have so far is to buy a PRO MATE II and the ICSP module. Anyway I can come in under the $1K or so that entails? Thanks! Harold FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.