Mark: That I can understand. However, you can get the regular versions of CircuitMaker and Traxmaker for about half of the price I mentioned, or at least you used to be able to. I believe they go for under $300.00 each in the regular versions. There are some limitations but not all that many, mainly the device library etc. Hope this may help some too. Randy A. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads