Olin Lathrop wrote: > Some others on this list will probably disagree with this, but I see no > point in these "free" do it yourself programmer designs availble on the web. > By the time you order the parts, pay for them, build it, and debug it, it > will have cost a lot more than a PicstartPlus. And then you'll still have > to worry about whether it will do the chip for your next project, or the > chip coming out next quarter. For some reason people seem to have an > amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. There's a lot to be said for the Newfound Warp-13, if you just use 16xxx parts. Half price is good... I don't agree on your pricing estimate on the DIY programmers, I can buy a kit locally with PCB and all then register the shareware for about $55 total; (At the least, if you buy a PicStart Plus, get it at a seminar for a "mere" $150 USD, not $200.) And if you make your own DIY Programmer from parts, it's less than that. Personally, I'm sorta disgusted with the philosophy of some device programmer manufacturers; I have quite a few, have a LOT of money invested in them, and it always seems like I could spend another $1000+ on more, better newer device programmers, more adapters for them, more device selector cards, etc. - Each always seems to take MORE RAM and more CPU power to do the same job internally, due to requiring a newer Windoze OS to run at all, and and and... Repeatedly have to download huge, different interface software for each, and you have to go buy the latest greatest OpSys, to program your cheap PIC controllers or your EPRoms or whatever? Seems like there's a better way, but we seem to not have time free for open source designs here. Especially with some of the device makers leaning towards high priced subscriptionware for the pre-processor software for DSP's, FPGA's, and so on. Grrr! That's a killer, from where I sit. They're telling me, "Look for another chip maker." If you have to own multiple device programmers for multiple differing devices, prepare to spend LOTS of money, and carry a lot of hardware. I would far prefer to have spent "a mere $2000" or so for ONE device programmer with good support that would hook on via serial or parallel to any terminal or laptop that happens to be handy, and which comes with a full set of any adapters / adapter cards / etc. needed, than have spent many times that and have THIS many different device programmers requiring different pricey OS upgrades's, different interfaces, repeated downloads of new firmware and interface programs, and still always need more programmers for other devices. Frustrating! Seems for the small shop, someone's always finding new novel ways to spend my money - so they don't have to think. If you need serial port programmability off Dos, off batteries, in the field - prepare to make your own programmer. If you need anything they didn't think of in advance, expect to spend more Bluntly: In the PicStart Plus, Microchip made what was convenient for them - not what'd be handy for MY needs... Might be handy for most, I'm frustrated though. Other companies are far worse here, at least MicroChip's firmware upgrade files are free for download, not 1/2 the price of a new PicStart Plus! (Sold one device programmer that tried that on me.) I'm annoyed at Parallax for dropping their parallel port programmer entirely. Grrr. Like the Needham's EMP-10 and -20 mostly, but the -20's device signal routing cards are too dang pricey (Should be $30 for the whole set instead of "buy them as you need them" current prices... With processor power so cheap, cache RAM so cheap, and OTP parts so expensive, seems that it'd be better for us developers if the makers made any device programmer, hook to the host CPU through the users' choice of Serial or parallel port; cache the data to be programmed into the PIC chip or other device, internally, then burn the part once it's checked the checksums on the data passed to the programmer. (Anyone else had 17Cxx and 16Cxx OTP parts fail during programming, due to a serial connection problem with a PicStart Plus? They could at least have the programming fail safely, but that's not been my experience. Or they could test the serial link on startup and have bad connections reported so you don't lose OTP parts and TIME - Haven't experienced that either. It's a pain to lose a Windowed part in front of a client, at least I can erase and re-use the part. Not so with OTP parts.) If I could drive the thing from ANY laptop or desktop I owned, I'd be lots happier... Not advocating hand-typing in an S19 file, I'd love to see a smarter programmer though that'll deal with serial or parallel input and have open source drivers etc. Lot of work to make one, of course... Mark -- Detest spam? Take the Boulder Pledge, boycott SPAMmers. http://www.zdnet.com/yil/content/mag/9612/ebert9612.html -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList mailto:piclist-unsubscribe-request@mitvma.mit.edu