I did not say the PICStart + programs a 16F877 in 10 seconds. I said it was a time greater than 10 seconds, but that it was a matter of seconds as opposed to your understanding that it is a matter of minutes. I haven't programmed an f876 for a few weeks, so I certianly could be mistaken in my recollection, but I will see about programming one over the weekend and timing it so I can get my facts straight. You are correct in stating that no programmer can completely program the f87x in 10 seconds. Going by the programming spec: Start programming 10mS to do bulk erase Programming Cycle 14uS to start programming cycle loop: 7uS to send load data command 17uS to load 14bit word 2mS to for tprog (typical, no minimum mentioned, max is 5mS) 7uS to send read data command 17uS to read 14bit word 7uS to increment PC endloop (Total = 2.055 mS per memory location or 16.83 seconds for 8192 locations) Programming configuration and data eeprom (another cycle as above for up to 261 locations plus a few commands is about .54 seconds) Verify all memory locations 14uS to reset PC loop: 7uS to send read command 17uS to get 14 bit word 7uS to increment PC endloop (Total = 31uS per memory location, or .25 seconds per verify) End programming So, assuming a non production programmer (one verify), we can theoretically program the complete 16f87x chip in under 18 seconds. This from information I took from the 18f8xx programming specification. I could easily have missed some important step, not having actually built a programmer myself. But this indicates that the programming limit reaches the limit of the chip one would use to program. With some good programming one could probably do it with a 5mips PIC. An 18cxxx (scenix) chip could easily go fast enough to reach this limit, but not the 1mips (max) chips most programmers use. I don't recall what clock speed the PICstart runs its chip at, but I'm sure it doesn't go this fast, so my earlier statement must have been off. I'll go home and program a chip tonight to time it... As far as serial speed, I can envision a bulk programming scheme where each word only needs two bytes sent from the computer to the programmer (you indicated 4 bytes per location, I assume to send the programming commands, rather than put that functionality in the firmware (at the cost of needing firware updates more frequently)). At 9600bps we can send 480 words/second, or 8,453 words in under 18 seconds. (the seperate verify actually will take 18 seconds as well unless the programming chip has stored the data onto memory to perform the verify without the computer re-sending the data) So, unless I'm not reading the programming spec correctly, it is possible to program the chip (using it's typical timings, not minimum or maximum) with a serial link to the computer @ 9600bps in under 20 seconds, with another 20 seconds to verify. Perhaps you can enlighten me on the finer points of chip programming. I know I must be missing something large since you've indicated it takes 10mS to program each location, though I'm sure that was an estimate, and probably based on using a 1 MIPs pic to do the programming. I'll likely look at building my own programmer at a future date (learning experience more than necessity). I'll try to word my replies differently in the future so as not to mislead anyone (wrt to the > 10 second statement)... -Adam BTW, out of curiosity, when you say the new firmware supports the atmel, is this a firmware upgrade that users must pay for? If so, how much do these upgrades cost, and are your users then allowed to sell their older programmer chip to others? I couldn't find this info on your web site... Jim Robertson wrote: > > At 12:44 PM 6/15/00 -0400, you wrote: > > Bull! Such a nice way of calling me a liar ;-) > The WARP-13 will program the F877 faster than the picstart plus > everytime. > > How can any programmer program the F877 in 10 seconds? > > Lets see. > 8192 x 0.01 = 81.92 Seconds program time alone. This is before you add the > serial comms overhead of 4 bytes @ 19200 baud. > > The picstart plus takes over two minutes to program the 16F877 and in fact the > time I quoted was the picstart plus time and not the WARP-13 time as the > WARP-13 can be quicker. > > I would be most interested in how you can be programming the 16F877 in 10 > seconds with a picstart plus... > > Jim > > >Why does it take so long for the warp-13 to program the f877? My Picstart > does > >in in a matter of seconds (greater than 10, perhaps, so not as fast the > the AVR > >it looks)... > > > >-Adam > > > >Jim Robertson wrote: > >> The high Voltage serial mode is supported as is page mode programming. (The > >> newer AVRs can be programmed within three seconds, compare that to the > >> two minutes + for the 16F877.) > > > Regards, > > Jim Robertson > NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS > ________________________________________ > Email: newfound@pipeline.com.au > http://www.new-elect.com > MPLAB compatible PIC programmers. > ________________________________________