The operative word is 'beginner'. Why should 8MB of program called MPLAB be dumped on a beginner? How many people are put off when told they must d/l a program about the same size as IE5 in order to 'begin' a possible hobby. My Kit 81 has its own assembler (Manning) specifically written for the PIC16F84. There are no other PICs or 8MB of code options to confuse/intimidate the beginner. The programmer software is the free proven software of P16PRO Lite, specifically for the 16F84. The latest version of this pcb now shipping (K81V4 photo on my website) has the test socket and 5 LEDs so the beginner can immediately see that his first program has been a success. To me this is what a beginner need - simple tools and reinforcement to build confidence. Jaycar in Australia are now selling about 100 per month of my Kit 81. Kit 81 to me is a 'beginners' programmer. 2. THEN after finding their feet they can assess PIC's other than the 16F84 and thus look at other programmers and d/l the required fully featured MPLAB. regards, Peter Crowcroft DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong Voice: 852-2720 0255 Fax: 852-2725 0610 Email: peter@kitsrus.com Web: http://kitsrus.com Betawebsite: http://www.picturefinders.com -----------------------------------------------------------------------