I've stayed out of this thread so far but what the hey. Here we go. Lets see, gotta have PICs in it, doesn't it. Note about here that I am NOT a USA basher, NOT a USA hater. I greatly appreciate the role of the US of A in society, the world and history. The US of A is in large part responsible for me not speaking German and or existing, quite possibly and a lot more. But, it's not perfect. It has done and still does some fairly unfriendly things - some by omission and some by commission. When it feels that its interests are threatened it tends to do more than normal nasty things. All those who are utterly convinced of the utterly saintly, moral, upstanding and ethically angelic nature of Henry Kissinger should stop reading right now. For those who don't know who Henry Kissinger is/was, if he had died in his heyday then Richard Nixon would have been ruler of the free world. For those to whom this doesn't mean anything, thing of him as Madeline Allbright on steroids and with an attitude problem (and with the same job). Anyway. Way back when (a bit over 20 years ago) in a universe not very far away from where I live the Portuguese decided it was inappropriate for them to be colonial masters any more in East Timor so they all went home. Back then we all knew we were fighting the cold war and the communist menace and the apple-pie and motherhood destroyers so Uncle Sam was real twitchy about the thought of the commies moving in and taking over East Timor, even if this just meant that all the people wanted to be communists (which they may well not have done). It may have been that the USA would have liked them to build a PIC making facility there and the commies were unlikely to want to do this. [[Sorry, that's the best I can manage for PICs in this particular story :-(]]. Whatever. The big benevolent Indonesian neighbours (previously the Dutch East Indies but the Dutch had gone home sooner than the Portuguese) eyed their little neighbour and wondered if they would like to be protected. However. they were worried that Uncle Sam may not approve of them being protective. I'm told (and of course as ever, I may be wrong) that Henry Kissinger just happened to turn up in Indonesia and talk to a few random people and then left the country. I'm told, (and as always I may be .... etc) that 2 days later the Indonesian decided that it would be a good idea to protect East Timor and moved in en masse. Unfortunately there must have been a lot of commies there so a lot of people had to die - so far in the last 20 years its been around 200,000 which is pretty impressive for a country with under 1 million population (even less now). Most died in the first few years. Now any intelligent right thinking person can see that the US of A didn't do the invading or the killing or anything. They will also be aware that Henry K toured all over all the time and that any possible slim correlation between his movements and the Indonesians actions are statistically insignificant (and I may be wrong etc anyway). The US of A didn't get involved in stopping the Indonesians protecting the East Timorese because its not the policeman of the world and, anyway, it wasn't in its enlightened self interest to do so (that's the phrase they were using on TV a few days ago when Bill was here). Some unreasonable people would like to suggest that the US winked or/and far worse in this case, that by a simple stern word they could have changed things ("Walk softly and carry a big stick") and that they ought. Others will, of course disagree. As to the comments by the spammer who started this thread - he's a bit of a turkey methinks. Why he chooses to alienate any possible support by criticising so objectionably I don't know. His point was thereby lost. What that makes me and what happens to my point (whatever it is) we shall see. Some think the happenings of the past add some moral imperative to the US's involvement. Some don't. The Aussies have blood on their hands because (1) They had oil interests which would have been threatened by getting uppity with Indonesia (2) Indonesia has the 4th largest standing army in the world (400,000 troops) and an extremely impressive military capacity. Back then and approximately still it was/is a military run state where those in power could do all the things that the USA militia men say that their government is trying to do. You don't want to rile a neighbour like that. The only weapon that Australia has that is bigger and better than what the Indonesians have is the police-man of the world. This is a very effective weapon but not always very good at getting going (but irresistible once it does). Being white (largely) the Ozzies can be more sure of the POTW's help in times of crisis but being Ozzies, less sure than if they were Uncle Sammians. So they chickened out and 200,000 people died. NZ did no better but we are geographically hidden behind Oz and nobody would have noticed if the Kiwi roared. Incidentally the Indonesians tortured (probably) and killed (definitely) and mutilated (reportedly) a team of Australian television reporters during the invasion and the Ozzies were too wimpy to do anything about it and officially it never happened. There has been an ongoing ground swell of protests in NZ and Oz ever since but its never managed to gain popular support till now. 400 of our troops are flying out NOW to act as UN peace keepers (don't laugh thats the same pro rata as the US sending about 50,000). The "militia men" (mainly WEST Timorese armed and actively supported by the Indonesians, have promised to "eat the hearts of UN peace keepers" and say they have 30,000 ex Portuguese weapons (unlikely but ...) and promise they are ready to kill and die. What's their mandate? Well, as most come from West Timor, none at all. Those who are East Timorese are saying that the 80% who voted for independence should be killed maimed and cowered until they succumb. This is not democracy as I know it - nor, I believe, as the USA knows it. Which doesn't per se make it the POTW's concern but ... A problem is that the Indonesian military tends to operate as franchises/"families"/independent units and not as an army as we and Y'All know it. If the local boss doesn't like the politics of the orders he has, he MAY decide to do otherwise. This MAY mean that the women and children (and men too of course) murdering "militia men" may continue to be armed by the I' military with highish tech weapons. If not, the peacekeepers should get n top of the gross situation fairly easily with the problems being sniping and guerilla action. If we see RPG,s and worse we will know that the supply line is coming from elsewhere. The reference to Portuguese weapons (30 years old) may be an attempt to "explain" ongoing milliary weapons turning up but this will not fool anyone . That should be enough for now :-) regards Russell McMahon _______________________________________ What can one man do? Help the hungry for free at http://www.thehungersite.com/ From: Dennis Plunkett >At 11:03 16/09/99 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>> The US has no responsibility to FIX everybody else's problems. If the >>> problem >> >> >>AMEN! > >But what about when the US has a hand (Be that not obvious) in creating the >problem in the first place? >