AMEN... >Please consider; > > MIT owns the hardware/software used to run this list - They can shut >down the PICList in a minute, if they don't like what we do with it. > > I seriously doubt MIT wishes to be dragged into any possible lawsuit, >bad media publicity, etc. from a few on this list discussing Pirated >Software. > > Would it improve that same poor students' situation, if this list was >closed by MIT due to users abusing the list? Anyone own a spare T1 line >we can move the list to when it's closed down, and have the $$$ it takes >to buy list server software? > > Let's just NOT go there! > > Cadsoft wants $49 for companies using the software in question, free >for student evaluation; Ivex's software's FREE, for the basic software >up to so many pins IIRC, etc. etc. So on what's been posted to the >list, the "cost" argument is completely irrelevant IMHO - You can go to >APCircuits & get their free tools & use them, you can use Circad's demo >for free, IVEX's software starts off free, or Eagle Light (for FREE, or >pay $49 for it if you're a company). There are many, MANY other pieces >of CAD software out there for free or low cost. You mention EasyTrax as >free - then want me to believe that it's impossible for a poor student >engineer to have a CAD package? Pretty strange logic. > > Yes, some of these have limitations. (You want to learn electronics? >Learn to "Divide and conquer" - build sub-assemblies with Ivex's >software, that you can attach together, etc. This whole list's about >learning to use your brain, not your larcenous instincts! ) > > Yes, those're not "ideal" software, it's not OrCAD or whatever; I >learned using an engineering pad & pencils, you can use that too, so >what if there're more expensive ways to do things? You CAN get tools >for free, for any "hobbyist" project I've ever done. > > If you're making an over 8-layer board, over 11"x17" in size, what >sort of "hobbyist" *are* you? Circad's Dos demo version does something >like that, IIRC I'm sure it's not the only software, that capable, >out there. > > YES, the "Dream software" like (my at one time favorite) Pads PCB and >OrCAD, isn't free; By this same argument, is it OK for me to steal a >brand new, very expensive SMT soldering station from the local >electronics store showroom, 'cuz they have many of 'em and bought them >at wholesale, this one was a demo anyways, I want/need one & have none, >even though I could use my current soldering iron & work for long enough >to make enough money to buy it in a couple months? - Suuure. You'll >have a hard time convincing me on this one, I believe. > > OTOH, questions like "I'm a poor hobbyist, how can I get a good >working CAD package" are quite OK by most members of the list, I think >("OT" but extremely relevant and quite acceptable, IMHO.) Price making >that PC Board you just gotta have Orcad and PADS for, then tell me again >that $49 is too much for a hobbyist to spend... > > This argument and the cracks posts are "upsetting the denizens", so to >speak; I'd like the list to be mostly ON TOPIC, and about PICs. Anyone >who wants to discuss cracks, "warez" etc. can go to usenet, or make >their own mailing list, or do it in e-mail off list, or whatever - I'm >not saying they cannot talk about those things - I *AM* saying that: >*This* list isn't the right place for talking about cracks. > > I know all about being a poor engineer (I'm sure ALL of us know all >this. Too intimately.) That's where many/most of us started; I think >you'll find VERY few of the PICList members are against poor, starving >young (or old ) engineers getting what they need to have, to get more >income - AND, they're also against losing this valuable (to ALL of us!) >resource called the PICList. If the PICList is valuable to you, >*please* do not risk its loss by doing things that may cause its >destruction. > > I think this is what's bothering the "natives" here - knowing that the >list can be shut down for abuse, when they themselves have gone through >the same thing, with far less resources available, and managed to get >through without causing destruction of someone else's e-mail resources. >If you don't value the PICList, why are you on here? (Just to scroll >your Inbox? ) > > And if you're a poor (old or young) engineer in the Seattle area sans >computer, or sans internet connection, gads, send me e-mail, and I'll >help (I've thought a web page dedicated on how to shoestring >engineer your way to making money would be quite a hit, there's a >Blacksmithing to make your own shop series like that - why not a "Pic >your way into Electronics" series, starting with logic probe & ending >with 16-channel DSO's etc.? ) > > Mark > >Ry Lato wrote: >> >> OK, there seems to be a big controversy on this mailing list >> about using pirated Electronics CAD software. >> Lets put things into perspective. Many of us on this list are hobbyists >> and or students. We cannot afford to spend the $1000-$10,000 >> costs of some of these CAD packages. We would not by the software >> anyway, we simply cannot afford it. So who are we stealing food from? >> There are limitations that we have by not having a registered licence. >> For one thing, we are not entitled to technical support from the >> software maker. The bottom line is this. As long as no one is profiting >> from any design made with any of these "cracked" CAD packages, I don't >> have a problem with it. In fact it benefits the Electronics CAD >> companies. If I use a cracked version of Orcad for a student project or >> for a hobbyist project, I may get used to working with it. I then may >> choose ORCAD when I work in industry or create a electronics related >> business, in where using pirated software becomes an unnecessary risk. >> In fact Protel saw this years ago and made EASYTRAX available for free. >> Its not a matter or right or wrong. Its putting everything into logical >> perspective rather than self righteous morality. >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >