Perhaps some of the newcomers might find this useful. Any PICs I use I put straight into cheap flat legged DIL sockets (not attached to any PCB, just add the socket below the PIC using a vice or similar). I then use good quality turned pin sockets on the boards of my programmers and projects. The socketted PIC plugs in and out of the turned pin sockets nicely, they seem to make a snug fit (I've never had any loose connection problems) and the extra thickness of the socket on the PIC makes it bulky enough to pull out easily without tools. A poor man's ZIF socket with the added advantage that should you have a catastrophe and break a leg then its only on a cheap DIL socket not the more expensive PIC itself. Brian Brian E Jones Centre for Java Technology IBM HURSLEY