By no means do I agree that people with hoards of education are useless. As a matter of fact, I am and have worked with many professional engineers and PHDs. I find that it is vital that we all work together. However, I think it is true, even you acknowledged it in our correspondence that I shouldn't hold it against you that your well educated. (speaking to un-named individual with hoards of education) In my old company, I was judged much more strongly than any professional engineer because I didn't have the silver ring on my finger. My saving grace, was that I was the guy that made things happen, otherwise I'm sure I would have been out on my ass a long time ago. I know several engineers who have taken the diploma then degree route, because of the sentiment that diploma'd engineers are not as good as degree'd engineers. It's funny that in today's world, it is now flipping the other way. Craig