This is not just an urban legend. There are some very sophisticated techniques that are "very" destructive to the device under attack. I used to have a link to a site that described in detail some of the methods these "service" companies use, but I seem to have lost it. Maybe someone else out there will know the one I am talking about. Anyway, some of these techniques can be hacked at home, but for difficult jobs, complex and expensive "fab" equipment is used. Various chemicals and mechanical methods are used to obtain access to the die, then by connecting to various points on the die, the contents of the ROM can be read out. Like most MCU's, PIC's a very vulnerable to an extremely sophisticated attack. These guys are so good at what they do that several companies (I think ATMEL is one of them) have developed high security MCU's, that use a variety of tricks to thwart this kind of attack. I believe some such chips actually self-destruct if the package is compromised. CIAO - Martin. On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:31:33 -0700, Pete Klammer wrote: >Terviist! > >please, can you be more specific? > >Can you tell me who offers such services, or how to find them? > >I don't doubt the technical feasibility of this, but as it is presented >so far, >it sounds like one of those "urban legends" (you know: the story about >the dog >in the closet choking on the burglar's finger it had bitten off, or >whatever that was...) > >I would like to know how much it really costs and how long it really >takes, >and what the success rate is (do you need a number of parts to ensure >full ROM reconstruction), >is it a destructive process (can you sneak the cracked part back into >service?). > >And then I would like to hear these guys discuss what methods are >better, more expensive, etc. > >Peter F. Klammer / pklammer@racom.com >Racom Systems, Inc. / 6080 Greenwood Plaza Blvd. / Englewood, CO 80111 >(303)773-7411 / FAX:(303)771-4708 / http://www.racom.com >World's First Dual-Interface Symmetric-Access FRAM Smartcard > >> ---------- >> From: Alexey Vladimirov[SMTP:avlad@MAILBOX.RIGA.LV] >> Reply To: pic microcontroller discussion list >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 7:36 AM >> To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >> Subject: CODE SECURE WITH PIC? >> >> 15 Dec 97, zhuxh@cheerful.com writes to All: >> >> z> I am woundering if the code protection with PIC's is as secure as >> z> promised by Microchip? >> >> Yes, due to Microchip promise only, that code protection exists, and >> nothing >> about actual strength of code protection. >> >> z> as far as I know, there is a company in Beijin that offers service >> to >> z> help decode the Microchip's PICs. The cost is about US$1000 for >> each >> z> chip! >> >> The same service you can also found in Moskow, Russia. They promise >> any >> protected PIC code reverse engineering with cost lower, than $1000 >> (same price!) in one-two days. For PIC16C84 it can be done for almost >> free and >> for PIC16F8x price is lower, than $100. Probably, both companies use >> some >> technological backdoors in Microchip products. Sorry, I don't know any >> technical details, only see advertisiments and know some cases of the >> successfull using of this service. >> >> z> I am afriad my own coding with PICs will be copied by others one >> day. >> z> Do you have any idea on this? Is my worry unnecessary? >> >> The only things, that can protect you - change you product as >> frequently, as >> possible, add new features, new ideas and didn't try to obtain >> superprofit. >> If you need really protected product for security applications - use >> special >> security designed chips, not wide available microcontrollers. >> >> Alexey >> >> --- GoldED/2 2.50+ >> Martin R. Green elimar@NOSPAMbigfoot.com To reply, remove the NOSPAM from the return address. Stamp out SPAM everywhere!!!