> I think Steve has probably identified your problem. I think Steve is on the right track, but not quite on the nail. If the subject line is correct, the crystal is oscillating in the third overtone of the marked frequency. If it was a third overtone xtal and things were going wrong, it would be running at a third of the marked frequency (ie fundamental). Crystals are usually operated in fundamental mode up to around 20MHz where they get too thin to be economical. I can't remember what frequency was being used in this instance, but it seems unlikely that it would be that high for a DTMF chip. When you use a third overtone crystal, you have to put a filter in place to suppress the fundamental, leaving the overtone the only one with the right phase to make things happen. IIRC, the original fault manifested itself when a finger was stuck on the board. If the normal trimming capacitors you put around are only 10-30pF (these are pretty small values of capacitance), shoving 100lbs of skin encased biological slop onto the board is likely to upset things. ie. A high pass filter with finger-nails. > AFAIK they call a third overtone XTAL an 'XT cut' and a fundamental > mode XTAl an 'AT cut' ... anybody know what this is? Again, almost but not quite. The cut (AT, XT, etc) describes how the crystal physically moves in it's oscillation mode. Whether it gets fatter/thinner or twists along one axis, etc. An AT cut is the most common and has good temperature characteristics. The other common format for low frequencies (32kHz) is the tuning fork. >> Crystal is not a third overtone type is it. If so try fundimental type this >> may resolve the problem. Or could the value of bypass capacitors be marginal >> check device data sheets for correct window of values Or use disamilar values >> for bypass capacitors Or use ceramic resanator with inbuilt bypass capacitors >> Or add series resistor 500R or so with the crystal. A couple of other things to check: I think the layout was described as being good. ie. short tracks, etc. Does this include a blob of copper ? Is this blob of copper grounded ? If not, it makes a nice capacitor that you probably don't have on your schematic. Are there any fast switching things nearby ? For example, AC series logic is a killer. Is the chip designed to use the style of crystal in use ? I used a Motorola RTC once, that would power up configured for a 4MHz AT crystal which would overdrive the 32kHz tuning fork I was using. That sent the crystal into spasms and I couldn't get any sense out of it until the clock was configured by software to use the lower power part. Steve. (a different one) ====================================================== Very funny Scotty. Now beam down my clothes. ====================================================== Steve Baldwin Electronic Product Design TLA Microsystems Ltd Microcontroller Specialists PO Box 15-680 email: steveb@kcbbs.gen.nz New Lynn, Auckland ph +64 9 820-2221 New Zealand fax +64 9 820-1929 ======================================================