---------- > From: Alex Bogdan > To: PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: subcontractors are welcome! > Date: Sunday, March 16, 1997 12:30 AM > > John Dammeyer wrote: > > > > At 02:08 AM 15/03/1997 -0600, you wrote: > > [snip] > > > > > >Had you merely posted to the list that: > > > > > >[1] The original author might find better people if he offered more > > > or > > >[2] That potential respondents should be aware that better jobs may be > > > available to them > > > > > >then I would have thought such remarks were reasonably appropriate. Your > show > > >of offense, however, was IMHO uncalled for. > > > > If the original poster had indeed just posted a request for work and that > > they would pay $25 per > > hour I would have been more gentle. The details in payment options and > > delivery suggests that in fact this corporation wishes to find 'cheap' > > labour and knows exactly what it's doing. To suggest, as you did in point > > [1], that someone that responds to this request for work might not be as > > capable IMHO is just as rude. > > > > > You seem to imply that there is > > >a monolithic market for contract labor when there is, in fact, quite a range. > > > > Yes, I agree. In fact programmers that write device drivers for NT > > generally are paid more than prgrammers that write database application > > software. Embedded systems programmers generally are paid more than > > programmers who write for non-real time time applications. > > > > >Timex has not, and will not, push Rolex out of the market despite its vastly > > >lower price. For Rolex to criticize Timex for charging to little would be > > >absurd; Timex simply fills a different market need. Similarly with lower- > > >priced consultants. Criticizing someone for seeking a contractor from a > > >different market segment than that which you occupy is IMHO unmannerly and > > >inappropriate. > > > > > > > I agree that a timex/rolex comparison is absurd. Perhaps a better example > > is what we all see happening on a regular basis in the retail computer > > marketplace. Someone opens up a computer store and sells, due to > > inexperience in retailing, systems at prices that do not allow for long > > term survival. Customers, who are very price sensitive when it comes to > > buying oranges verses oranges obviously tend to the lower priced dealer. > > Six months later that dealer is gone - empoyees out of work and perhaps > > suppliers left holding some of the debt. Consumers appear to have gotten > > the best deal on price. Meanwhile the more established computer store has > > suffered a fairly significant loss of income for six months because if they > > tried to compete on price they too would be gone. Unfortunately that does > > happen. > > > > The above example occurs when someone, through inexperience, temporarily > > enters the market place to sell a product or service. It doesn't address > > the mega-stores of course so to some extent this example is 'cooked'. A > > 'free' market supporter can jump in here and hurrah that it's the way the > > system works. True! I have just never liked the bi-product casualties in > > lost jobs, family stress and general risk aversion (by the banks and > > suppliers) that this produces. Depends on your social outlook I guess. > > > > I expected this type of response from someone when I wrote my original > > posting. I also know a number of other people will agree or disagree with > > my opinion. However, if you are working in a full time job with a salary > > and benefits and also consulting on the side, evenings and weekends, at less > > than the market rates that would support full time - long term presence in > > the market place, IMHO your opinion does't have a lot of validity. Take the > > risk, quit the full time job then argue for the benefits of a $25 contract. > > > > Corporations that dangle $25/hr carrots when they know the real cost of > > employees, IMHO, don't deserve a lot of respect. There was a time when it > > would be considered ludicrous to argue against the use of children in the > > mines; they were so much smaller and more economical. Rugs (or any other > > products) made by child labour in the developing world sold in North America > > all fit into this same classification and the justification. "Gee, if we > > didn't pay them $2.00 a day then they'd starve, we are helping them." just > > doesn't wash with me. > > > > The consulting contract and terms posted by the original author shows they > > know exactly what they are doing. My guess would be that if, given the $25 > > ceiling, that the weekend/hobby contractor with 20 years experience will get > > the contract before the student does; he may even use his $1000 compiler > > and $5000 logic analyser he 'borrowed' from his real job. If the student > > quotes a lower time, due to inexperience - not incompetence, we all know > > he'll still end up spending the actual time it takes to complete the job. > > Now he's working for even less than $25/hour. Sure it's the free market > > system. To suggest that it's bad manners or inappropriate to question this, > > well, I don't think so. > > > > John Dammeyer. > > > > PS. Before anyone responds think about this: If you have in your possesion > > SOFTWARE on your computer that you didn't pay for and you justify it's > > presense by: > > > > " Well, this SOFTWARE is just for home hobby use." > > " I'm evaluating this SOFTWARE and I'll pay for it next year when I really > > use it." > > " XYZ Corp. charges too much for this SOFTWARE anyway" > > " I'm only using the SOFTWARE on my machine at home or at work and not at > > the same time" > > " I can't afford their price but I need to use this SOFTWARE" > > > > These and other excuses roll glibly off the tongues of so many people. In > > our society we justify, and have justified, all sorts of wrongs so quickly > > and easily. Substitute the word "ROLEX" for "SOFTWARE" and most people > > would acknowledge that you're a thief yet if I called anyone a thief for > > having an illegal copy on their machine they'd take offense. > > > > When we 'knowingly' buy a product made by $2.00 per day labour we support > > oppression. IMHO, when we _support_ $25/hr for short term, professional, > > consulting when we all know the _real_ cost is far greater, we do the same. > > Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud, > > with arrows in their backs. > > Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 1-250-544-4950 > > PO Box 20002 Fax 1-250-544-4954 > > Sidney, BC CANADA V8L 5C9 > > I think you are typical corporate programmer who is trying to protect his > job! > Basically, what you are saying is following: > > 1. It is better for students in the summer time (or part time) to work > in a restaurant for 6 - 8 dollars an hour rather then to use his/her > knowledge and ern $25US for doing educational project! > > 2. There is only one grade of skilled PIC programmers on the market > (presumably your level) who charge $80 an hour! > > 3. If you were to hire a student to work for your company you would pay > him/her right from beginning not less than $80 an hour. > > 4. You are convinced that only very expensive equipment is needed to do > the PIC programming! (Just for reference: for our project we require only > PIC Start Plus) > > Well, I don't know folks! > > Alex I have followed this list now for a while and i must say that these people replying is always the same old bunch and by now they think they are experts and if beginners ask questions they try always to let the beginners feel stupid for asking questions and the so called pro's does'nt even have constructive answers.