Alex,  one point here.  Do us all a favour and at least snip out the message
bodies.  Now on to the debate.  8-)


At 02:30 PM 15/03/1997 -0800, you wrote:


>I think you are typical corporate programmer who is trying to protect his
>job!

I realized that I risked getting personally flamed because of my opinion.
So now I can consider myself flamed!  8-)


To set the record straight.  I am self employed.  I pay $400 per month for
office space plus I have phone and fax lines.  I have had to pay as much as
$5000 for CAD/CAM software plus a regular $695USD subscription to Microsoft
for MSDN-II so that I can write NT device drivers.  Newer software that
customers require or stipulate means that I have to periodically update my
hardware just to run the software even if the older stuff was adequate for
me.  I have to discard a $1500 processor programmer because the supplier
won't support the 16C74A.  I need to spend a certain amount of time updating
my skills to remain competitive.  I love my job and the variety it brings.


>Basically, what you are saying is following:
>
>1. It is better for students in the summer time (or part time)  to work
>in a restaurant for 6 - 8 dollars an hour rather then to use his/her
>knowledge and ern $25US for doing educational project!

No!  You are saying what I alluded to in my previous message. "Gee,  if we
didn't pay them $2.00 a day then they'd starve, we are helping them."

In fact,  if you provide a solid summer employment (4 months) for
engineering students to give them both work experience and let them earn
enough to help them continue their University Education; great!  I commend
you and your company for doing that.  If, however, you lead them on with a
small job at $25/hr that takes one week and then leave them hanging for 3
weeks until the next one week job you are abusing them for then the work
experience that comes from being resident within lab/shop/company is not
available.

Although you offered your resources from someone local to the Toronto area
you made it clear that soemone could work over the internet from their
home/office etc.  A student sitting at home writing software for you doesn't
get all that much work experience.


>
>2. There is only one grade of skilled PIC programmers on the market
>(presumably your level) who charge $80 an hour!

You might recall that I stated:
 " Yes,  I agree.  In fact programmers that write device drivers for NT
generally are paid more than prgrammers that write database application
software.  Embedded systems programmers generally are paid more than
programmers who write for non-real time time applications."

I don't believe that I ever said there was one grade of programmer.
>
>3. If you were to hire a student to work for your company  you would pay
>him/her right from beginning not less than $80 an hour.

No!  If and when I hire someone for summer work I would not pay them hourly.
I would commit to a employment contract that would allow them to have
stability in their life.  BTW,  I've been there, done that including
covering Blue Cross Dental for a staff of 9 - not inexpensive.  I also gave
an initial 3 weeks holiday per year on the condition that the extra
non-required week was take consequitively with one other week.  I wanted my
employees to come back from vacation rested.

One of the reasons that consultants charge more is to cover the 'inbetween
time'.  The project proposals and just general sales effort to find the work
plus the professional upgrading required in this fast moving marketplace.
>
>4. You are convinced that only very expensive equipment is needed to do
>the PIC programming! (Just for reference: for our project we require only
>PIC Start Plus)


Perhaps I wasn't clear on the subject of logic analysers as it appears that
you may have misunderstood what I meant.  I have no idea what your project
requires.  But, if a project _does_ require a logic analyser or ICE, and a
hobby consultant 'borrows' his from work and I have to buy mine, then I am
suffering a severe competitive disadvantage if the hobby consultant charges
only $25/hr.

As for the need of 'expensive' equipment.  That is probably enough of a
subject for a completely different thread.  A PICMASTER ICE can reduce the
debugging of a complex real time PIC project by a great number of hours,
especially where new external hardware is concerned. eg. Master I2C
routines.  Judging by your response to the applicants who wish to work for
you,  the price will be fixed.  If debugging due to a problem takes an extra
10 hours your inexpensive consultant will probably have to eat that so it
doesn't cost you or your company any extra unless on time delivery is on the
critical path.

The higher paid consultant with the ICE may solve the problem in five
minutes.  For a 40 hour project the consultant stays on schedule,  the
student or amateur is now being paid $20/hr.
>

Regards,

John Dammeyer.
Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud,
with arrows in their backs.
Automation Artisans Inc.      Ph. 1-250-544-4950
PO Box 20002                  Fax 1-250-544-4954
Sidney, BC CANADA V8L 5C9