John Dammeyer wrote:
>
> At 02:08 AM 15/03/1997 -0600, you wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >Had you merely posted to the list that:
> >
> >[1] The original author might find better people if he offered more
> >  or
> >[2] That potential respondents should be aware that better jobs may be
> >    available to them
> >
> >then I would have thought such remarks were reasonably appropriate.  Your
 show
> >of offense, however, was IMHO uncalled for.
>
> If the original poster had indeed just posted a request for work and that
> they would pay $25 per
> hour I would have been more gentle.  The details in payment options and
> delivery suggests that in fact this corporation wishes to find 'cheap'
> labour and knows exactly what it's doing.  To suggest, as you did in point
> [1], that someone that responds to this request for work might not be as
> capable IMHO is just as rude.
>
> > You seem to imply that there is
> >a monolithic market for contract labor when there is, in fact, quite a range.
>
> Yes,  I agree.  In fact programmers that write device drivers for NT
> generally are paid more than prgrammers that write database application
> software.  Embedded systems programmers generally are paid more than
> programmers who write for non-real time time applications.
>
> >Timex has not, and will not, push Rolex out of the market despite its vastly
> >lower price.  For Rolex to criticize Timex for charging to little would be
> >absurd; Timex simply fills a different market need.  Similarly with lower-
> >priced consultants.  Criticizing someone for seeking a contractor from a
> >different market segment than that which you occupy is IMHO unmannerly and
> >inappropriate.
> >
>
> I agree that a timex/rolex comparison is absurd.  Perhaps a better example
> is what we all see happening on a regular basis in the retail computer
> marketplace.  Someone opens up a computer store and sells, due to
> inexperience in retailing,  systems at prices that do not allow for long
> term survival.  Customers,  who are very price sensitive when it comes to
> buying oranges verses oranges obviously tend to the lower priced dealer.
> Six months later that dealer is gone - empoyees out of work and perhaps
> suppliers left holding some of the debt.  Consumers appear to have gotten
> the best deal on price.  Meanwhile the more established computer store has
> suffered a fairly significant loss of income for six months because if they
> tried to compete on price they too would be gone.  Unfortunately that does
> happen.
>
> The above example occurs when someone, through inexperience, temporarily
> enters the market place to sell a product or service.  It doesn't address
> the mega-stores of course so to some extent this example is 'cooked'.  A
> 'free' market supporter can jump in here and hurrah that it's the way the
> system works.  True!  I have just never liked the bi-product casualties in
> lost jobs, family stress and general risk aversion (by the banks and
> suppliers) that this produces.  Depends on your social outlook I guess.
>
> I expected this type of response from someone when I wrote my original
> posting.  I also know a number of other people will agree or disagree with
> my opinion.  However,  if you are working in a full time job with a salary
> and benefits and also consulting on the side, evenings and weekends, at less
> than the market rates that would support full time - long term presence in
> the market place, IMHO your opinion does't have a lot of validity.  Take the
> risk, quit the full time job then argue for the benefits of a $25 contract.
>
> Corporations that dangle $25/hr carrots when they know the real cost of
> employees, IMHO, don't deserve a lot of respect.  There was a time when it
> would be considered ludicrous to argue against the use of children in the
> mines;  they were so much smaller and more economical.  Rugs (or any other
> products) made by child labour in the developing world sold in North America
> all fit into this same classification and the justification. "Gee,  if we
> didn't pay them $2.00 a day then they'd starve, we are helping them." just
> doesn't wash with me.
>
> The consulting contract and terms posted by the original author shows they
> know exactly what they are doing.  My guess would be that if, given the $25
> ceiling, that the weekend/hobby contractor with 20 years experience will get
> the contract before the student does;  he may even use his $1000 compiler
> and $5000 logic analyser he 'borrowed' from his real job.  If the student
> quotes a lower time, due to inexperience - not incompetence, we all know
> he'll still end up spending the actual time it takes to complete the job.
> Now he's working for even less than $25/hour.  Sure it's the free market
> system.  To suggest that it's bad manners or inappropriate to question this,
> well,  I don't think so.
>
> John Dammeyer.
>
> PS.  Before anyone responds think about this:  If you have in your possesion
> SOFTWARE on your computer that you didn't pay for and you justify it's
> presense by:
>
>  " Well, this SOFTWARE is just for home hobby use."
>  " I'm evaluating this SOFTWARE and I'll pay for it next year when I really
> use it."
>  " XYZ Corp. charges too much for this SOFTWARE anyway"
>  " I'm only using the SOFTWARE on my machine at home or at work and not at
> the same time"
>  " I can't afford their price but I need to use this SOFTWARE"
>
> These and other excuses roll glibly off the tongues of so many people.  In
> our society we justify, and have justified,  all sorts of wrongs so quickly
> and easily.  Substitute the word "ROLEX" for "SOFTWARE" and most people
> would acknowledge that you're a thief yet if I called anyone a thief for
> having an illegal copy on their machine they'd take offense.
>
> When we 'knowingly' buy a product made by $2.00 per day labour we support
> oppression.  IMHO, when we _support_ $25/hr for short term, professional,
> consulting when we all know the _real_ cost is far greater, we do the same.
> Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud,
> with arrows in their backs.
> Automation Artisans Inc.      Ph. 1-250-544-4950
> PO Box 20002                  Fax 1-250-544-4954
> Sidney, BC CANADA V8L 5C9

I think you are typical corporate programmer who is trying to protect his
job!
Basically, what you are saying is following:

1. It is better for students in the summer time (or part time)  to work
in a restaurant for 6 - 8 dollars an hour rather then to use his/her
knowledge and ern $25US for doing educational project!

2. There is only one grade of skilled PIC programmers on the market
(presumably your level) who charge $80 an hour!

3. If you were to hire a student to work for your company  you would pay
him/her right from beginning not less than $80 an hour.

4. You are convinced that only very expensive equipment is needed to do
the PIC programming! (Just for reference: for our project we require only
PIC Start Plus)

Well, I don't know folks!

Alex