>By the way, what PCB package do you use, and have you seen WinBoard and
> WinDraft?  I talked with this company and you can get a 100 pad
>vertion via the internet, and upgrade the pads by paying them (cheap).  O'h I
> also understand that the founder of this company is also the
>founder of Orcad, and he is no longer with Orcad.  Just thought I would mention
> this seeing as a lot of people might want free software for
>making small projects like LED-somethings... I will post the Inet address
when I
> get to work, got Jury service today! (drat)
>     Giles L. Honeycutt

I tried out the IVEX (free) product and while they work very well on a small
test board I did, they upchucked something fierce on a 94 Pin board.  (Lot's
of GPFs with the product).

I'm running Windows/95 on a brand-new AST Computer.  I did call IVEX to ask
about it and they said they were aware of the problem under Windows/95.

I'm back on Easytrax (the free version you can get on the Net).

>Byron A Jeff wrote:
>> Well this is a religious argument. Each has their advantages and
> disadvantages:
>>
>> Breadbording: Quick to throw together. Easy to change. Entirely too easy to
>> change.
>>
>> Wirewrapping: Quick to throw together presuming you have the equipment.
> Sockets
>> cost more than PCB sockets. Too much extension from the bottom of the board.
>> Fairly stable and generally easy to modify.
>>
>> PCB: Please tell me how to make an inexpensive, consistent PCB. While it
>> may be easy to do, many of us have not set up the design tools and equipment
>> to put it together. I'll gladly take a lesson in easy PCB making.

I used to do it and finally gave up and got boards made.  The problems I had
included:  Getting top and bottom side layers to line up (or I would go with
one layer and lots of jumpers), Chemical storage and disposal (it's illegal
to put in the garbage here in Toronto AND you have to pay somebody to take
them), film manufacturing (although I got pretty good at it towards the end
with a laser printer that could do transparencies), board developing (Again
Chemicals and their disposal as well as making a lightbox to hold the film
against the card) and drilling (the drills cost a fortune and break so
easily).  I once (note the "once") made a board using tape, stencils, and a
PCB marking pen.

For the past two years, I've done a number of Hobby boards using AP Circuits
in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.  I've had excellent results each time with a
cost generally about $60 Canadian for two boards - the only problem I've had
is with a bad socket (not the raw card's fault).  The cost is dependant on
the size of the card and the number of holes (good incentive to keep the
boards small), you can do multiple up panels which will drop the cost per
board significantly (last year, I did 8 "Frosty the Snowman" Boards at a
final cost of $12.00 Canadian each).  The three day turnaround doesn't hurt
either.

>> Pre-etched PCBs: Been experimenting with these lately. Shows promise. I'm
>> talking about the Rat Shack boards that are etched to look like breadboards.
>> Simply solder in the sockets, components, and wire.

I think you're talking about "Vero"/"Vector" (I'm not sure of the right
term/manufacture) Boards (the boards with the long copper strips on the
backside), which is .  They come out about 2x as large as the final,
embedded version, but at $5.00 for a 6x6 board (which I usually cut up into
smaller boards), the price is hard to beat.

One hint, I just got a Vector "Pad Cutter Tool" from Digi-Key (Digi-Key P/N
V1056-ND, Price $16.38).  I know the price is a bit high, but it really make
working with the boards a joy, compared to cutting the traces with a drill
or an olfa knife and a soldering iron (like you do with a Surfboard).

Now, does anybody know of any layout tools for these boards?

>> Each has advantages and disadvantages. Generally while I'm designing and
>> testing I wire wrap. Easy to put together a semi-permanent board that can
>> be changed if necessary. I'm willing to examine PCBs but all I read in the
>> sci.electronics newsgroups is how difficult it is to get good boards....

Steve Ciarcia, when he was creating projects for Byte, used to create
semi-embedded cards for his projects.  He would put on Connectors and such
and wire Vcc and Gnd and then Wire-Wrap the rest.  Maybe if somebody's
energetic, they could do this for the PIC?

myke

Being a stealth pilot is one of the most labour intensive and time
constrained types of flying that I know.  We have very strict time
constraints: to be where you are supposed to be all the time, exactly on
time, and that has to be monitored by the pilot.  For example, during a bomb
competition in training in the U.S., I dropped a weapon that landed 0.02
seconds from the desired time, and finished third!

Lt. Col. Miles Pound, USAF