I have been following the thread on building an RS232 pic programmer and the resulting "bootstrap problem" for those who dont want to use and IBM PC. How feasable would it be to toggle a program into a 16C84 by hand using switches (like they did with computers in the old days!) I realize this would be extremely tedious but the challenge would be to write the smallest program that could make sense of RS232 and use this to program another pic with a more sophisticated program. -Paul Trezise.