Richard, I'm glad you put your question about programmers on the table. As a result, I hope to build a programmer based on the 16c84 programmer that was located at bode.ee.ualberta.ca . I know it will be a bit of work to make it program a 16c64, but I think that it will be worthwhile. Good luck with your decision, and please let us know what you think of the seminar. Yours, Derrick Early